V14 data conversion issues

Julio Carneiro (6/13/14 2:20PM)
Joshua Fletcher (6/13/14 7:28PM)
Joshua Fletcher (6/13/14 7:30PM)
Joshua Fletcher (6/13/14 7:34PM)
Joshua Fletcher (6/13/14 7:45PM)

Julio Carneiro (6/13/14 2:20 PM)

Yes Jim, that feature is pretty much useless in the real world, where
you have 4D apps installed in various places, and thus need to convert
multiple datafiles.

Funny that this is the first time I hear about this! Am I the first
one to bump into this use case? Converting multiple datafiles to V14?
I have not seen this mentioned here before. Not even when there was a
big discussion here about the new requirements to enable history
logging of all tables.

Sure, I can go back and add those new fields in v2004, pre-populate
the data there, before conversion.

BUT, that requirement should be made LOUD and clear in the Upgrade
documentation. All one sees there is the talk about the new
"Assistant" that was supposed to take care of all that for you.
No mention there, that one needs to do a lot of extra work to convert
an application.

When you have 100s of sites to upgrade, that means an interim upgrade
of your existing installed based with a 'preparation' version. And
only after that, you can move up to V14.

<rant>
I may be getting old and forgetful, but this is the first time a 4D
upgrade forces you to make changes to your existing application, and
your installed base. Only to prepare for V14.
</rant>

julio

On Jun 13, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Jim Crate <jim@... wrote:

color><param>00000,0000,DDEE/param>OOn Jun 13, 2014, at 11:10 AM,
Julio Carneiro <jjfourd@... wrote:

/color><color><param>8826F,0000,8219/param>WWhat happens is that the
datafile that gets converted along with the structure does get
auto-populated. That is, all the new fields created via the assistant
are auto-populated.

The problem happens when I open the newly converted structure with
another v2004 datafile. Then, none of the assistant-created ID field
get auto-populated by 4D!
/color><color><param>00000,0000,DDEE/param>[[snip]
/color><color><param>8826F,0000,8219/param>II can see why 4D would not
auto-populate those fields. Unless 4D keeps an internal flag
indicating that as an 'assistant-created' field, why would it
auto-populate anything during conversion!
Someone suggested a UUID instead of a Longint fild type might do the
trick. I'll give that a try too.
/color><color><param>00000,0000,DDEE/param>
The UUID field does not auto-populate in this case either. ?The
auto-population apparently only happens when the structure and data
are converted together, making the feature pretty much useless. ?In
most cases a developer would want to start the upgrade with the
structure and a test datafile, make whatever code changes may be
necessary to support V14, and then convert the production datafile
when it is time to go live.

4D wouldn&iacute;t need to keep an internal flag to auto-populate those
fields. ?At the time the data file is being converted, they could
check if the field they are adding as part of the conversion is marked
as the primary key, and auto-populate (or at least ask if you want to
auto-populate). ?

Jim Crate
/color>
Joshua Fletcher (6/13/14 7:28 PM)

Guys, this is wrong. ?Please watch the video that Randy posted and/or
test with a small database. ?The entire purpose of the webinar was to
discuss *this exact scenario*.

If it's not working, please contact 4D Technical Support.

(trying to nip this in the bud, I don't want misinformation being
spread to those who are reading so I apologize if I sound a little
short)

Kind regards,

Josh

--
Josh Fletcher
Technical Account Manager
4D, Inc

color><param>00000,0000,DDEE/param>
/color>

-----Original Message-----
color><param>00000,0000,DDEE/param>FFrom: 4d_tech-bounces@...
[mailto:4d_tech-bounces@...
On Behalf Of Julio Carneiro
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2014 10:20 AM

Yes Jim, that feature is pretty much useless in the real world, where
you
have 4D apps installed in various places, and thus need to convert
multiple datafiles.

Funny that this is the first time I hear about this! Am I the first
one to
bump into this use case? Converting multiple datafiles to V14?
I have not seen this mentioned here before. Not even when there was a
big
discussion here about the new requirements to enable history logging of
all tables.

Sure, I can go back and add those new fields in v2004, pre-populate the
data there, before conversion.

BUT, that requirement should be made LOUD and clear in the Upgrade
documentation. All one sees there is the talk about the new "Assistant"
that was supposed to take care of all that for you.
No mention there, that one needs to do a lot of extra work to convert
an
application.

When you have 100s of sites to upgrade, that means an interim upgrade
of
your existing installed based with a 'preparation' version. And only
after
that, you can move up to V14.

<rant>
I may be getting old and forgetful, but this is the first time a 4D
upgrade forces you to make changes to your existing application, and
your
installed base. Only to prepare for V14.
</rant>

julio

On Jun 13, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Jim Crate <jim@... wrote:

/color><color><param>8826F,0000,8219/param>OOn Jun 13, 2014, at 11:10
AM, Julio Carneiro <jjfourd@... wrote:

/color><color><param>FFC79,0365,0771/param>WWhat happens is that the
datafile that gets converted along with the
/color><color><param>00000,0000,DDEE/param>sstructure does get
auto-populated. That is, all the new fields created via
the assistant are auto-populated.
/color><color><param>FFC79,0365,0771/param>
The problem happens when I open the newly converted structure with
/color><color><param>00000,0000,DDEE/param>aanother v2004 datafile.
Then, none of the assistant-created ID field get
auto-populated by 4D!
/color><color><param>8826F,0000,8219/param>[[snip]
/color><color><param>FFC79,0365,0771/param>II can see why 4D would not
auto-populate those fields. Unless 4D keeps
/color><color><param>00000,0000,DDEE/param>aan internal flag
indicating that as an 'assistant-created' field, why
would it auto-populate anything during conversion!
/color><color><param>FFC79,0365,0771/param>SSomeone suggested a UUID
instead of a Longint fild type might do the
/color><color><param>00000,0000,DDEE/param>ttrick. I'll give that a
try too.
/color><color><param>8826F,0000,8219/param>
The UUID field does not auto-populate in this case either. ?The auto-
/color><color><param>00000,0000,DDEE/param>ppopulation apparently only
happens when the structure and data are
converted together, making the feature pretty much useless. ?In most
cases
a developer would want to start the upgrade with the structure and a
test
datafile, make whatever code changes may be necessary to support V14,
and
then convert the production datafile when it is time to go live.
/color><color><param>8826F,0000,8219/param>
4D wouldn?=80&ocirc;t need to keep an internal flag to auto-populate those
fields.
/color><color><param>00000,0000,DDEE/param>AAt the time the data file
is being converted, they could check if the
field they are adding as part of the conversion is marked as the
primary
key, and auto-populate (or at least ask if you want to auto-populate).
/color><color><param>8826F,0000,8219/param>
Jim Crate
/color>
Joshua Fletcher (6/13/14 7:30 PM)

Correction: Wayne posted the video. Sorry Wayne and Randy! ?Here's the
link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cquRjXBl1xE

Good luck!

-Josh

--
Josh Fletcher
Technical Account Manager
4D, Inc

color><param>00000,0000,DDEE/param>
/color>

-----Original Message-----
color><param>00000,0000,DDEE/param>GGuys, this is wrong. ?Please watch
the video that Randy posted and/or test
with a small database. ?The entire purpose of the webinar was to
discuss
*this exact scenario*.
/color>
Joshua Fletcher (6/13/14 7:34 PM)

color><param>00000,0000,DDEE/param>
/color>

-----Original Message-----
color><param>00000,0000,DDEE/param>RRemember, that is a v2004
structure! No deleted fields or tables! That
capability was introduced in V11 I guess.
/color>
Still possible in 2004:

-Old structure has 10 fields.
-Old structure becomes corrupt.
-Create new structure using Insider.
-*BUT* new structure only has 9 fields.
-Open old data file.

The data for the old 10th field is still there.

The main point I was trying to make is that the situation you have
described is not normal and requires further investigation. ?The
example I gave is just the most common example. ?I don't think you're
doing anything wrong, based on what you said, but there's something
not right with the database. ?I don't have the capacity to perform
Technical Support via this email list unfortunately (it's not really
the right forum for that anyway) so I highly recommend following up
with TS if you require additional help.

Thanks, and good luck!

-Josh

--
Josh Fletcher
Technical Account Manager
4D, Inc
Joshua Fletcher (6/13/14 7:45 PM)

Sorry to post here again. ?I don't want my replies to be taken the
wrong way so here's some more context:

I spent something like 6 weeks to make sure that a) we had the "right"
features to help you guys meet the Primary Key requirement in v14 and
b) that the process was well explained. ?The fruits of that labor were
the Webinar linked previously as well as an aggressive campaign to
promote the Webinar by our Marketing team. ?We made a really big
effort here because there was serious potential for disaster with this
change.

Julio you are absolutely doing the right thing by trying it out.
That's critically important! ?But if you didn't see the Webinar that
means we failed to communicate effectively and I'm sorry for that. ?We
tried really hard to make sure EVERYONE (literally, every single 4D
customer) was aware of this change and this Webinar.

I also want to apologize that I've been unable to produce a written
document to supplement the Webinar content. I realize that not
everyone wants to sit through an hour long video. ?It's still on my to
do list so I haven't forgotten, I just don't have the bandwidth at the
moment to complete it.

If my previous replies seem curt it's because I'm trying to be clear
and firm, not because I'm trying to be insulting. I hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Josh

--
Josh Fletcher
Technical Account Manager
4D, Inc
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Summary created 6/13/14 at 1:26PM by Intellex Corporation

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